Nutritionist vs. dietitian vs. trainer vs. reality - Greg?

[Valkyrie]

Originally Posted by Steve

it tricks them into thinking the high days are like gifts

[gt2003]

Steve, I haven't tried this to be honest. Most of my teaching is done in a group and I'm not so sure there are very many of them who could grasp it. I usually use the basic 10 calories/lb rule and they latch onto it and do great with it. What I do find is that most folks cut way, way, way too low when they are losing weight. Most of my vets are pretty big so when they get 2500 calories/day for a 250 lb guy they see every day as a gift. They are so used to going into the hospital and being put on a lower than needed calorie diet or having someone "not in the know" tell them they need 1500-1800 calories/day to lose weight that reasonable calorie levels are a godsend to them. They are so used to being starved all the time that they are thankful to get an adequate amount of calories. I think that is a really awesome idea but I would have to pick and choose those I used it with. Are you talking about something similar to what Shea has been doing? She's done awesome!

[Steve]

Not quite what Shea has been doing as she's toying around with a modified IF protocol. Though we were chatting and it's what made me think about asking for your thoughts.

And yeah, I feel out my clients as this approach isn't a fit for everyone. However, my take is this - people want results first and foremost. And for my obese clients, their ability to drop pounds at a substantial rate without all the metabolic fuckery, muscle loss, etc. is greatest relative to their leaner counterparts.

Simply putting them on 1500 cals per day would certainly "work." Assuming they stuck with it.

But with this approach I'm speaking of, my goal is to make the average deficit larger than had I simply thrown the old "10 kcal/lb" rule, which I use quite often too.

It really evolved from a few clients I actually ran with using PSMF with. They realized huge losses. However it wasn't sustainable. Or fun. So I figured why not give them a physical/mental break every other day.

And for some, it's great.

[gt2003]

I'll tell you what, let me find some unknowing subject who seems quite motivated and I'll see what results I get. Can you give me an idea of the calories you might use for a 250 lb guy and how you manipulate them? Seriously, I'm willing to try it. Hook me up brotha!

[Steve]

I don't have things set in stone. That said, if the guy is truly motivated, I might have him do something like this...

High days:

10 calories per pound. I tell him to get his protein target in and eat a healthy dose of fibrous veggies. And unless it's contraindicated... he'll take in 6 or so grams of fish oil. Beyond that, I don't limit his choices as long as he remains within the calorie limits. I'll typically provide a list of foods I recommend, which contains the typical healthy choices. But I stress the avoidance of rigidity and tell them to add in their goodies if they'd like.

So they'd be looking at between 2500 and 3000 cals.

Low days:

I've gone straight PSMF with some of these folks. There it's nothing but protein, small dosage of fat, and fibrous veggies.

Protein intake will typically be .8 to 1 gram per pound of estimated lbm and that's pretty much it as far as calories go. Well I shouldn't say that... it's just the bulk of the intake. Add in the small amount of fat from the pills and the residual amounts found in the lean sources of protein PLUS the very minor amounts found in the fibrous veggies and that's it.

I stress the idea of making veggies your snacks and to keep in mind that though it's not ideal, it's just for a day. Tomorrow will be much more easy and loose.

There are obviously many, many ways of setting it up. The specifics don't matter as much as the overall philosophy if you ask me. But it'd be interesting to see how a motivated client fairs with it.

[BikeSwimLaugh]

Steve...I'm not Greg, but I'd like to offer some thoughts on this.

I think it comes down to something I read and learned on this forum, something you yourself seem to preach, and that is: if it works for you, then it works!

Just like the 6-meal plan...if it serves to make you feel fuller and you overall eat less, then it works. If, however, you find yourself overall eating more then it doesn't work...for you. We're each different and it still comes down to 'find what works for you and play it for what it's worth'

I myself find it almost necessary to get into an obsessive mode. Dee and I have been discussing that lately. Only through total focus, dedication and determination can we consistently maintain a steady regimen. The moment I ease-up or allow myself to deviate from the program, I start laxing-up, having a bit more frozen yogurt, adding a few more toppings...and before you know it your eatng maintenance and not even hitting a deficit.

As for confusing the body/metabolism with mixing-up the intake...I'm sure it's negligible, much as the thermogenic effect of keeping the metabolism stoked with those little meals.

I'm just expressing thoughts, I acknowledge both you and Greg being far above my base of knowledge...but maybe something I write strikes a chord.

[Steve]

Oh I wholeheartedly agree... it's about matching the approach to the individual. Admittedly this isn't for everyone. With obese folks though, I've found that if they're a match, establishing the biggest average deficit while maintaining sanity goes a long way in keeping motivation high.

I know Lyle likes the idea of putting obese folks on PSMF to jump start the process. In my experience, it's too rigid. Every other day makes it much more "digestible."

I'm big on diet breaks too in this specific population, primarily for psychological purposes.

[BikeSwimLaugh]

Originally Posted by Steve

I'm big on diet breaks too in this specific population, primarily for psychological purposes.

In the end and in total, it's all about the psychology, not only in diet, but in life.

FWIW, I think I often run my diet like a HITT program. Just like when I ride my mountain bike, I dump the chutes and always sprint to the top of the each hill, peaking-out the HR at 175+...it leaves ya breathless and burns, but I know I can relax one I hit the top of that hill. When you are aware that it's temporary or has an end-point, you can push extra hard.

Dieting can be like this. I'd always tighten-down and lean-out extra hard in the days just before my appointment to be weighed/measured/evaluated. Just like sliding in to home-plate, I like to arrive light, lean, dry & clean.

Sometimes it's hard to perpetaully endure extreme or even moderate intensities when it comes to dieting. Some of us look forward to an 'off' day and we trade that one day for several hardcore days. Like you say and what has always been said: whatever works for you.

Some of these obese people have major or even severe issues when it comes to staying on a diet. It's more complicated then we could even being to touch on here in this thread.

Have you considered kidnapping their dog and threatening to kill it if they don't lose weight? Ughh, nevermind...nobody seems open to mafia approaches nowadays. "You'z look thinna, where'd all that fat go?"..."it must have fallen off the back of a truck"

[Focus]

hello thread